Is this bizarre spam mail, my comments in color:
I’m of Dutch origin, but I moved from Holland at a young age with my parents. I monitor what goes on in Holland and how my country of origin has changed, not least with the rise of Geert Wilders and the so called “Islam debate” (strange to have a debate with only one side of the argument, but there you go, lol). What you write about Islam, conforms exactly 100% to the estabished cultural and historic conditioning of the society I come from.
I wish people would take the trouble to actually read my blog…
Our values, tastes, language, worldview around us are given to us and formed by the society we grow up in, but because I moved countries at a young age I guess maybe I have not been as thoroughly conditioned by the society around me and this has actually given me more freedom away from conditioned world views. I would argue true freedom and independence of thought comes from being able to break away from the conditioned worldview that our born society gives us (and EVERY society conditions or tries to condition its individuals to believe in it’s own values … take Nazi Germany or Communist Russia for example, but Dutch society is no different, and that is the scary bit!)
If you think that the current Dutch society is anything like the Nazi Germany or communist Russia, you need some serious counseling. Not to mention history lessons, and maybe a visit to the country itself would be helpful…
Due to my background and the increased fear of Islam in Dutch media and society in general, I became curious and wanted to understand more about Islam,
Yep that’s how I started out too, combined with the news item that in Saudi Arabia a girl was being punished for being raped with torture and prison….
and why I felt I was being conditioned to hate an fear Islam by my surroundings, while I really knew next to nothing about it and religious Muslims were like a closed book to me.
I wouldn’t call it conditioning, especially as the stuff I read in the media about Islam was very contradictory, definitely different sides get their say here. So in my case I wanted to know which side was right.
So I set myself a task, because I do not like “mysteries” and Islam was a big mystery to me, so I wanted to solve this mystery once and for all. I had no interest in looking at the Quran or Islam to merely to verify preconceived opinions, that’s easy to do… no I wanted to choose that which was hard, not that which is easy to do.
Don’t quite understand what Alex is talking about here, it’s quite easy to get a few books and read them. And I don’t see the mistery. Besides, going online I got a lot more information and met some very nice people.
And some very nasty ones.
But they all helped me to learn and make up my mind.
I have succeeded in this, after some effort, including learning to read Arabic.
I have been told from reliable sources, including some native Arabic speaking persons, that there is nothing in the quran and hadith which cannot be translated perfectely well, so I did not bother to spend a few years learning a difficult language in it’s classical form.
I now know exactly if, why and when a person like Geert Wilders is lying
He is a politician
I also realise that most ordinary people, do not realise when he is lying on purpose or when things are said about Islam which are based simply on ignorance, willful or not,
He is a politician
but I am very glad I took the effort to solve the big mystery of Islam.
Again, which mystery?
You just wanted it to be mysterious didn’t you?
Maybe there is a detective in me, but it has certainly changed and altered many views I felt I had previously, and I felt where my own… when in fact they are a product of my upbringing and the societies I partially grew up in.
Same here. You can actually follow on my blog how I made up my views by learning and understanding more. But you didn’t read the blog.
I think the success I have had in understanding the world of religious orthodox Muslims, as well as a Western mindset, is maybe also party due to my background and the fact that I moved countries early in my life.
I’m just open minded by nature and very flexible.
I think maybe this has a big effect, not least that it can facilitate a person to break free from societal and cultural conditioning much easier than if I had only grew up in one society.
I can see from your writing you are very convinced about your understanding and beliefs particularly regarding Islam,
Yes I am, as well as on all other religions.
maybe I can make you curious enough about myself and my aquired understanding of Islam, despite not having any sort of Muslim background or contact with born Muslims at all.
No need, thank you, your letter explains a lot about you and your views. I think I know enough.
I am now a white Dutch Muslim, I converted to Islam after study. I guess perversely it was due to Geert Wilders and media attention towards Islam, that make me interested. It forced my attention towards Islam. It seems it was/is not my destiny to follow the path of blind agreement with people like Wilders that most ethnic Dutch people are intent on following or at least passively accepting as being normal and truthful.
I have to disagree with you. As a Dutch person I know that most Dutch do not follow people like Wilders, The Dutch are extremely tolerant and open to different cultures. I think I have not been in any other country which so heartily welcomes different cultures and is truly interested in them. Also I think the Netherlands is quite unique in it’s many ages of welcoming refugees both political and religious from other countries.
I think the ones who do ”follow Wilders” have mostly been inspired the the actions of Muslims at home and abroad to side with Wilders. It is also unfortunate that he is at the moment the only Dutch politician who seems to be aware of the problems relating to Islam and Mulsims so there isn’t much choice here.
It is a real pity that a Muslim assassin shot the far more reasonable Pim Fortuyn in cold blood in a cowardly ambush. He would have been a far better choice of politician to follow for those who are worried about Islam encroaching on our Dutch values of freedom and liberty and women’s rights.
So I am afraid that, again, Muslims have themselves to thank for getting a politician like Gert Wilders instead.
Wilders has the highest votes in the polls in my country and I worry about Muslims in Holland.
Not here, otherwise he would be prime minister, this is a misrepresentation of facts.
People seem to be prepared to follow Wilders blindly and unquestioningly because his ideas are made fair seeming to them, or because there are particular reasons for them to blindly accept what he says, due to Moroccan criminality and basically not wanting non-white people in their neighbourhoods, amongst others.
I wouldn’t discard the cowardly murders of people like Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh by Muslims. And combine that with terrorist attacks in the name of Islam, heinous crimes committed against women in the name of Islam, etc etc. Don’t you think that those little details might have something to do with what people think?
Also, and most importantly people accept Wilders ideas without thinking because I now realise that those ideas conform to established cultural and historical conditioning of the society both you and I are born into.
No they don’t, and no they don’t.
And stop acting as if we are buddies, we don’t even know one another.
Our Dutch society is not a society of fixed values, but fluid and radically shifting values, which are controlled or at least guided and led by those with power over media and politics, and real power in our society lies in big capital and economic control, NOT in the ballot box or parliament. We live and are conditioned in a corporate controlled environment, there is no escaping this.
That would be America. Not the Netherlands. Clearly you have been away for too long to have a proper understanding about how politics in the Netherlands work. The established and cultural conditioning in the Netherlands is to have lots respect for people from different cultures and religions and I agree with you we need to change that a bit and keep a firmer grip on, and have a lot more respect for, our own culture of openness and freedom and equal rights. Especially when it clashes with those who would destroy those ideals.