What I got in my mail:

29 11 2010

Is this bizarre spam mail, my comments in color:

I’m of Dutch origin, but I moved from Holland at a young age with my parents.  I monitor what goes on in Holland and how my country of origin has changed, not least with the rise of Geert Wilders and the so called “Islam debate” (strange to have a debate with only one side of the argument, but there you go, lol).  What you write about Islam, conforms exactly 100% to the estabished cultural and historic conditioning of the society I come from.
I wish people would take the trouble to actually read my blog…
Our values, tastes, language, worldview around us are given to us and formed by the society we grow up in, but because I moved countries at a young age I guess maybe I have not been as thoroughly conditioned by the society around me and this has actually given me more freedom away from conditioned world views.  I would argue true freedom and independence of thought comes from being able to break away from the conditioned worldview that our born society gives us (and EVERY society conditions or tries to condition its individuals to believe in it’s own values … take Nazi Germany or Communist Russia for example, but Dutch society is no different, and that is the scary bit!)
If you think that the current Dutch society is anything like the Nazi Germany or communist Russia, you need some serious counseling. Not to mention history lessons, and maybe a visit to the country itself would be helpful…

Due to my background and the increased fear of Islam in Dutch media and society in general, I became curious and wanted to understand more about Islam,
Yep that’s how I started out too, combined with the news item that in Saudi Arabia a girl was being punished for being raped with torture and prison….
and why I felt I was being conditioned to hate an fear Islam by my surroundings, while I really knew next to nothing about it and religious Muslims were like a closed book to me.
I wouldn’t call it conditioning, especially as the stuff I read in the media about Islam was very contradictory, definitely different sides get their say here. So in my case I wanted to know which side was right.
So I set myself a task, because I do not like “mysteries” and Islam was a big mystery to me, so I wanted to solve this mystery once and for all.  I had no interest in looking at the Quran or Islam to merely to verify preconceived opinions, that’s easy to do… no I wanted to choose that which was hard, not that which is easy to do.
Don’t quite understand what Alex is talking about here, it’s quite easy to get a few books and read them. And I don’t see the mistery. Besides, going online I got a lot more information and met some very nice people.
And some very nasty ones.
But they all helped me to learn and make up my mind.

I have succeeded in this, after some effort, including learning to read Arabic.
I have been told from reliable sources, including some native Arabic speaking persons, that there is nothing in the quran and hadith which cannot be translated perfectely well, so I did not bother to spend a few years learning a difficult language in it’s classical form.
I now know exactly if, why and when a person like Geert Wilders is lying
He is a politician
I also realise that most ordinary people, do not realise when he is lying on purpose or when things are said about Islam which are based simply on ignorance, willful or not,
He is a politician
but I am very glad I took the effort to solve the big mystery of Islam.
Again, which mystery?
You just wanted it to be mysterious didn’t you?
Maybe there is a detective in me, but it has certainly changed and altered many views I felt I had previously, and I felt where my own… when in fact they are a product of my upbringing and the societies I partially grew up in.
Same here. You can actually follow on my blog how I made up my views by learning and understanding more. But you didn’t read the blog.

I think the success I have had in understanding the world of religious orthodox Muslims, as well as a Western mindset, is maybe also party due to my background and the fact that I moved countries early in my life.
I’m just open minded by nature and very flexible.
I think maybe this has a big effect, not least that it can facilitate a person to break free from societal and cultural conditioning much easier than if I had only grew up in one society.

I can see from your writing you are very convinced about your understanding and beliefs particularly regarding Islam,
Yes I am, as well as on all other religions.
maybe I can make you curious enough about myself and my aquired understanding of Islam, despite not having any sort of Muslim background or contact with born Muslims at all.
No need, thank you, your letter explains a lot about you and your views. I think I know enough.

I am now a white Dutch Muslim, I converted to Islam after study.  I guess perversely it was due to Geert Wilders and media attention towards Islam, that make me interested.  It forced my attention towards Islam.  It seems it was/is not my destiny to follow the path of blind agreement with people like Wilders that most ethnic Dutch people are intent on following or at least passively accepting as being normal and truthful.
I have to disagree with you. As a Dutch person I know that most Dutch do not follow people like Wilders, The Dutch are extremely tolerant and open to different cultures. I think I have not been in any other country which so heartily welcomes different cultures and is truly interested in them. Also I think the Netherlands is quite unique in it’s many ages of welcoming refugees both political and religious from other countries.

I think the ones who do ”follow Wilders” have mostly been inspired the the actions of Muslims at home and abroad to side with Wilders.  It is also unfortunate that he is at the moment the only Dutch politician who seems to be aware of the problems relating to Islam and Mulsims so there isn’t much choice here.

It is a real pity that a Muslim  assassin shot the far more reasonable Pim Fortuyn in cold blood in a cowardly ambush. He would have been a far better choice of politician to follow for those who are worried about Islam encroaching on our Dutch values of freedom and liberty and women’s rights.
So I am afraid that, again, Muslims have themselves to thank for getting a politician like Gert Wilders instead.

Wilders has the highest votes in the polls in my country and I worry about Muslims in Holland.
Not here, otherwise he would be prime minister, this is a misrepresentation of facts.
People seem to be prepared to follow Wilders blindly and unquestioningly because his ideas are made fair seeming to them, or because there are particular reasons for them to blindly accept what he says, due to Moroccan criminality and basically not wanting non-white people in their neighbourhoods, amongst others.
I wouldn’t discard the cowardly murders of people like Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh by Muslims. And combine that with terrorist attacks in the name of Islam, heinous crimes committed against women in the name of Islam, etc etc. Don’t you think that those little details might have something to do with what people think?
Also, and most importantly people accept Wilders ideas without thinking because I now realise that those ideas conform to established cultural and historical conditioning of the society both you and I are born into.
No they don’t, and no they don’t.
And stop acting as if we are buddies, we don’t even know one another.
Our Dutch society is not a society of fixed values, but fluid and radically shifting values, which are controlled or at least guided and led by those with power over media and politics, and real power in our society lies in big capital and economic control, NOT in the ballot box or parliament.  We live and are conditioned in a corporate controlled environment, there is no escaping this.
That would be America. Not the Netherlands. Clearly you have been away for too long to have a proper understanding about how politics in the Netherlands work. The established and cultural conditioning in the Netherlands is to have lots respect for people from different cultures and religions and I agree with you we need to change that a bit and keep a firmer grip on, and have a lot more respect for, our own culture of openness and freedom and equal rights. Especially when it clashes with those who would destroy those ideals.

Take care,

Alex

You too,

Clouddragon

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7 responses

29 11 2010
Dutch Alex

You mentioned the murders of Theo van Gogh and Pim Fortuyn, yet in the UK many many many more people died in the London underground bombings… also I know that all the ideas about Islam were there looooong before the murders of Theo van Gogh, as you foget I am of non-muslim dutch origin…

Regarding the actions of those who kill people like Theo van Gogh, their motivation is to create more polarisation, because they have come to the conclusion that polarisation between Islam and the West benefits Islamic influences over the world population more than Westernising influences have a lot to loose… this can now be seen all over the world where since 9/11 and the war on terror, people in the Islamic world have been turning away from Western and Dutch based values, and back to Islamic values, especially as they know very well when naive and biased ideas about Islam and Muslims are spouted out 24/7 by media, bloggers and politicians from the West, a bit like the ideas of the eternally evil Jew who poisons wells and hunts after the blond aryan maiden, which were prevelent in Europe and Holland for centuries… except now the eternal Jew has been replaced by the eternal Muslim or Arab, who is by nature an evil anti-semetic nazi type savage who abuses women…. It’s time to wake up and smell the coffee, the real world out there is very different to what our dear leaders and mainstream media portray… and if you don’t believe me how much we are lied to, try wikileaks (not yet designated as a terrorist organisation)

29 11 2010
Dutch Alex

Secondly Pim Fortuyn was not murdered by a Muslim but an animal rights activist.

Thirdly, Wilders does not know nor does he care about problems regarding immigration in Holland, in fact he was part of the political elite who let thousands of non-Western immigrants into Holland to do cheep, virtual slave labour. Neither does Wilders want immigrants from a muslim background to leave the country, as he needs polarisation to have any power.

Also Geert Wilders goes not help YOUR values, his polarisation and so called attacks and cruisade on Islam only help one side… that side is not Dutch/Western values, it is not Israel or Washington… that side is Islam, for as long as people like Wilders inspire the Islam bashing and Muslim hating in Europe, I have no fear that Muslims will be persuaded to abandon Islamic values.

Basically Wilders is a joke and no serious threat other than to himself and the economic and cultural influence of Holland. However much I wish Holland well, I cannot help it if Wilders is going to self destruct Dutch society.

Furthermore I would be keen to see Muslim immigrants stop working as slaves in Holland for people who have no respect for them anyway, Dutch people should start doing the work they have been too lazy to do for 30 years, like cleaning the gutters and pavements and toilets.

Regarding tolerance towards people of other races and colours, let alone Muslims, just ask a non-muslim black person in Holland if Dutch society these last 30 years is not racist… then you’ll really hear the truth, there’s never been such a thing as Dutch tolerance… that’s one of the biggest myths which needs to be confronted and destroyed.

30 11 2010
Dutch Alex

By the way, when in your “stuggle for freedom” are you going to draw some Danish cartoons regarding the Jewish Burka the “Frumka”, the fact that Judaism and teaches very similar values to Islam, the Jewish-zionist dominance in Washington and Dutch media and politics, the Jewish-zionist role in the Iraq war etc… or are you not allowed by your ubermasters who tell you what freedom is and what you are allowed to say think and do or not.

If you want evidence at academic level of the above facts don’t hesitate to contact me, oh freedom fighter and lover of free speech.

You see… if your Danish Cartoons did the same thing to Jews as they do to Arabs… both semitic people by the way…. guess what people would call you… (I’m not going to use the word but let your mind answer for you)

Secondly I am and will not at least effectively oppose Wilders or your own spouting of Islamophobia, I simply use it to my own advantage. The thing is most people in power in the West… they have been dumbed down quite a bit… and are asking to be manipulated…. and if you are asking for it… you get it, haha.

30 11 2010
Dutch Alex

I also note you keep saying Muslims do not have a sense of humour, etc… we do, we’ve been having hysterics world wide regarding the recent wikileaks… we also have hysterics regarding the many hypocracies of certain values the West uses to clobber the third world and darker skinne people with, without actually believing in those values themselves (see Guantanamo)… so yes, Muslims have a very funny sense of humour, however, it’s usually at the expense of Islamophobes and reliably based on true facts not on false stereotypes or mixed with hate. I’ll tell you about someone who doesn’t have a sense of humour about anyone making jokes about him, his name is Wilders… many in Holland believe him to be a prophet, and blindly follow him, however, I have evidence he gets his “divine revelations” mostly from the Israeli embassy in the Hague…

8 12 2010
radha

good lord Alex, you are completely hung up on wilders, one man has so muchpower to get to you.. and that man is not even the holy one !!!! sigh deeply dissapointed in you .

As for sense of humor, have you lived inthe middle east, you must go live there andteach a few folks there some of this humour – not all just a few… but they are sorely lacking… forget cartons mentioning the koran is enough to get a few ofo them riled up….

oh you must visit thoe parts first or if you are already then … too bad ..have fun…and you should thank wilders — maybe send him a check for his part in leading you towards the right path .. bye

11 12 2010
MoQ

LMAO Alex,

you are the absolute king of Strawman arguments. You can make tens of positions of an imaginary person, then go ahead and attack those position. What is absolutely miraculous is how u can sustain that over many comments. You are very talented indeed.

12 12 2010
Aafke-Art

Yeah, I laughed too about wikileaks, it was interesting to see how sneakily Saudi Arabia is trying to incite other countries into wars on it’s behals, blackmailing them with their oil, while cowardly weaseling itself into the background. Very enlightening.

You really have a deluded hangup about Wilders, there are far more important things for you to worry about.

Radha, thanks for the intelligent response.
MoQ, ditto.
It is amazing how every ”discussion” with a religious fanatic gets bogged down because of the endless logical fallacies.

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