Fitna

24 04 2008

I had só wanted to ignore this. I didn’t want to see the 10 minutes trash put together by a demented student in a spare moment and erroneously advertised and spoken of as a ”movie”, but I have seen it. And I’m tired of seeing discussions about it in Blogsphere, and I’m not willing to be commenting anything about it any more.

Anyway, to everybody who has ignored it on their blogs: Right on dudes! You rock!

There are 17.000.000 Dutch, amongst which there is 1 bozo called Wilders. I’m insulted every time he is referred to as ”Dutch” or his ”movie” is referred to as ”Dutch”. One aberration does not a Dutchman make. The biggest success this movie has had is that it showed everybody that Wilders is pretty disturbed, stupid and knows nothing at all about Islam, nor about the bible. Because you can find quite a lot of similar statements in the bible too.

And I’m also pissed about how all muslims go on about how extremist terrorist are wrong and their shouting ”Allahu akhbar” while blowing themselves and a lot of innocent men, women and children up, has nothing to do with real Islam. Really. If that is so, do something about it! Speak up for yourselves and the truth and stop ignoring the creeps who are informing us in the west that their perverted version of Islam is really Islam. And hand bozo’s like Wilders the footage to make videos like fitna.

What Wilders is afraid for is the attenuation of Dutch culture because of the many immigrants we have. While I agree The Netherlands should have restrictions on immigration, I think having a multi-cultural environment is interesting and invigorating. Besides, large numbers have always migrated for hundreds of years towards the Netherlands because on the whole the Dutch are very nice and friendly and not at all given to force their culture/religious beliefs on other people. Actually in this respect other countries may have a lot to learn from us, the Dutch!

Typical Dutch girls in traditional dress

Anyway, if culture is that important I wish the Dutch would care more about it and for example be more interested in art and culture, and be prepared to pay artists an honest price for the work they do.

Never mind, I’m now going to show you:

  1. A piece of unadulterated Dutch ”Culture”, The ”Klompendans” (dance of the wooden clogs)
  2. A bit of our traditional Clog-dance adulterated by the Nefarious Influence of Alien Foreigners

I’d be very interested in your opinion which video is better to watch. The first one is very short, to spare you more pain than is absolutely necessary. Not that I want to have you think I’m trying to influence you in any way…

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16 responses

24 04 2008
Lofter

I haven’t seen the ‘movie’ you speak of, and don’t care to see it. I’ve seen enough of ‘movies’ that are little more than propaganda for one view or another. Bullocks. People should learn for themselves and make up their own minds as to what the truth really is.
Unfortunately, most people would rather have their ‘truth’ spoon-fed them by someone else. Sad, but true.
On the other hand, the clogging clips were very entertaining! 😀

24 04 2008
Aafke

Great Lofter: I’prefer to have people laughing. And don’t bother about the ”movie” It’s about 10 minutes creepy footage of dead bodies intersperced with out-of-context quran-quotations. Everybody should just ignore it!
Glad you enjoyed the video’s, now which one did you find more amusing???

24 04 2008
Lofter

LOL… definitely the second one! I didn’t expect it to go the way it did! The first one was predictable, but the second one was entertaining! 😀

24 04 2008
Marahm

The second video was wonderful! I enjoyed the first too, as a statement of the cultural past. Culture, however, is never static, even when tries to resist influences of change. I wonder whether the second video is more representative of Dutch culture today than the first?

As for Geert…I think you are being a bit tough on the guy. Where is the rebuttal? One can call him names all day long; blogs are full of them tnese days, but where is the rebuttal? Muslims, not Westerners, hold the future of Islam in their hands. Why are they not coming back strong and hard to answer the charges made by Geert and his gang?

Most Westerners (non-Muslim, that is) here in America would not regard the film as anything but calling a spade a spade.

24 04 2008
Aafke

Lofter: agree!
Marahm, I believe the consensus in Holland is that the video is too single minded and leaves no room for discussion. I also think nobody should pay too much attention to it, and NOBODY can blame the dutch as a nation for it, as we hold freedom of speech very high, and that means also for Wilders and his ilk. Don’t blame the whole nation of the Netherlands for the actions of one man. And what I would find more important is that the muslims, especially the ones living in the west speak out, instead of leaving their reputation in the hands of a few bigotted creeps.

I remember that after the bombings on the London busses muslims on the streets condemned these terror-acts, but many said they would not give the murderers up to the police if they knew who they were because they were muslims, and they had to protect their ”brothers”.
Suddenly the ummah does stand together. Not when women or children are abused, when innocent people (including muslims) are arbitrarily murdered, but when assassins have to be protected, because they call themselves ”muslim”. I find such speeches more damning than any ”Fitnah” video. That’s what I would have put into an anti-islam vid.
People who don’t stand by the country in wich they live where they get benefits, freedom of religion and speech (which is mostly used by creeps) and then, when a couple of murderous thugs show up, incorrectly claiming to be muslims, and sinning against the most fundamental holy laws of their religion, suddenly their loyalty goes with the thugs.

The second clog-dance is, I think, more representative for a larger part of the dutch community. 🙂

24 04 2008
Achelois

Wonderful post!

I like both videos and if I were forced to choose one I would choose the first one. First, it shows unadulterated culture and as a teacher I would be inclined to use that to show the Dutch culture if I were to talk about it. Of course I would then discuss how culture changes like Marahm pointed out so well and then the second video would come in handy. I am sure my students would like the second one better. I guess the ‘original’ Dutch culture would also have come from somewhere? Anyway, I am a sucker for old traditions and things as they were seem to me to be what they should be. I am weird like that (too!).

Regarding Fitna; I haven’t watched the movie and because it is banned in the country in which I live I don’t think I’ll be watching it. Reading from the various blogs I am sure there is nothing much to watch. I can only talk about rebuttal from a personal point of view. I don’t anymore, and will not ever say anything in favour of Islam and Muslims any longer. The problem with Muslims today is that we are very judgmental. I have never said anything against my own religion and when I talked about Islam or Muslims I used to try and understand and share my understanding of a particular aspect Islam. But I always got judged and blamed for spreading “wrong ideas” about Islam. I was “wrong” because I refused to say that the Prophet said anything misogynistic and because I refused to believe that men can oppress women and humiliate them. To be honest, explanations and rebuttals are not worth the bull crap one receives from some crazy Muslims. So Muslims who have genuine interest in the well fare of Islam don’t speak for this reason. Those who call themselves “traditionalists” don’t say anything because they try to explain that the extremists “have no other way out of their pathetic situation”; they bring in Iraq and Palestine to explain their sympathies. The fundamentalists will of course support themselves. So there we are. That is why in the end no one says anything.

24 04 2008
Achelois

Sorry for the long comment, Aafke.

Just wanted to add that I would give my brother to the police if he were a bomber (and if I had a brother 🙂 ). I don’t believe in the rubbish that we should support Muslims even if they are criminals because they are our “brother”. In fact, I’m very scared of fanatics and don’t want to have anything to do with them. They are not my brothers.

24 04 2008
Aafke

I was just going to say to the first comment: Thank you for that explanation. And it was not much longer than my own comment above you. Don’t ever apologise for making a long comment! It’s flattering you take enough interest, and if the words are needed to express yourself than you shouldn’t stinge! 😀
And i really appreciate your insights.
And nobody misses out on anything by not watching that video. I just felt I had to otherwise I couln’t write about it.

24 04 2008
Marahm

Don’t worry, Aafke, I would never assume that the Dutch, as a people, are blameworthy for this Fitna flap. With regard to Wilder’s position, Westerners, in general, sit in the same boat.

I believe we should not only watch the video, but respond to it with more than denunciation. Why do I believe this? Because the video speaks on behalf of MOST Westerners, at least those living here in America. I don’t know if it speaks for the Westerners in Europe. If the film is biased, propagandistic, or downright erroneous, Muslims need to counter it with a suitable rebuttal.

Why have they not done so? You and Achelois got it right. The Ummah does not want to condemn “fellow Muslims.”

So, what is that all about? This is not a rhetorical question.

24 04 2008
Rhysz

Fitnah was a complete waste of time, attention and bandwith. I, for one, salute my muslim countrymen when their reaction was:” Meh! *shrug*!” It’s kind of weird that noone really cared about Wilders’ idiotic copy/paste work. On my political site me and a friend of mine have been analyzing the quotes Wilders uses, and we’ve found them to be extremely wanting. A quick example would be that he uses several, I could say discredited, translations in his ‘movie’. I can post our comments if anyone is interested.

On the other hand, the reaction in London to the Danish cartoons was utterly dispicable and only added fuel to the fire.

My barber, who is muslim and a friend by now, once told me that he was sick and tired apologizing for these nutcases. I totally agree with him, I, for one, feel absolutely no need to apologize for people like pat Buchannan or, maybe even worse, Fred Phelps.

@ Marahm
The movie Fitna is basically unrebuttable. It says nothing, it does nothing and it means nothing. The only suitable reply is a firm:” Yeah, whatever!” It’s disconcerting to know that Wilders with his copy/pasting skills is now basically the Dutch ambassador on the internet. However, I do know out of first hand that Dutch peacekeepers in Afghanistan have been targeted by the Taliban, thanks to Wilders’ ‘contribution’.

Regards,

Rhysz

P.S.
@ Aafke

I hope you get your 15 minutes of wasted time/life back Aafke. I, unfortunately, have not.

24 04 2008
Rhysz

Sorry to post agaain……but this one is way more interesting than Fitna…… Anfd it has this little something called ‘humor’. Don’t worry this guy nails everyone!

Regards,

Rhysz

24 04 2008
Aafke

Rhysz: You have a barber? What does he actually do? Have I ever seen you after a session? Does he do the stuff that grows on top of your head? Does this mean you’ve given up trying to look like some heavy metal dude?

That was a scary post, what do you mean political forum? I think you’re not telling me things!
The video is great.

24 04 2008
Rhysz

Actually, it’s an ‘Alternate History’ forum. I, however prefer to post in the political forums.

25 04 2008
Marahm

Yes, Rhysz, I would like to see your comments on Wilders’ discredited translations. Thank you.

25 04 2008
Rhysz

I think this merits a separate thread as it’s about misrepresentation of the Quran. I’ve always felt that quotes of holy texts tell you a lot more about the quoter than they do about the text or religion in question.

Wilders is particularly deceptive and twisted in this regard, so here are his quotes, versus what the Quran actually says. The version I use is Leo-recommended, translation by T. B. Irving.

Surah 4 Verse 56.

This verse quotes God, discussing punishment in the afterlife for pagans who believe in witchcraft. I’m only giving it once because Wilders’ version is very close. In this case the context is the issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surah 4 Verse 56
Those who disbelieve in Our signs We will roast in a fire: each time their hides are toasted, We shall exchange them for other skins so they may taste the torment again.
Harsh, but not particularly alarming in the context of Hell’s torments. Wilders links it to actions in the material world.

Surah 4 Verse 89

This is in a section about manners and etiquette, including the sacredness of hospitality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilders
They but wish that ye should reject faith as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they, so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah. But if they turn renegades, seize them and kill them wherever ye find them, and take no friends or helpers from their ranks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quran
Surah 4 Verse 89: They (hypocrites) would love for you to disbelieve just as they disbelieve, so you will be exactly like them. Do not adopt sponsors from among them until they migrate along God’s way. If they should ever turn against you, then seize them and kill them wherever you may find them. Do not adopt any sponsor nor supporter from among them, except those who join a folk with whom you have a treaty or who come to you because their breasts shrink from fighting you or fighting with their own people.
Sura 8 Verse 39

This verse is from a section on warfare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilders
Fight them until there is no dissension, and the religion is entirely Allah’s.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quran
Fight them off until there is no more persecution, and religion belongs wholly to God: yet if they do stop, then God is Observant of anything they do.
That has quite a different tenor than Wilder’s version.

Surah 8 Verse 60

This section is on treachery. For this one I’ve formatted the text as Wilders displayed it, as it underlines something in particular.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilders
Prepare for them whatever force and cavalry ye are able of gathering

to strike terror

to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies of Allah and your enemies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quran
Prepare any [military] strength you can muster against them, and any cavalry posts with which you can overawe God’s enemy and your own enemy as well, plus others besides them whom you do not know. God however knows them!
Wilders follows his quote with a picture of a plane flying into the WTC.

Surah 47 Verse 4

This is a section on the conduct of war. This is probably the most serious distortion in Fitna.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilders
Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks and when ye have caused a bloodbath among them, bind a bond firmly on them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quran
Whenever you counter those who disbelieve [during war], seize them by their necks until once you have subdued them, then tie them up as prisoners, either to release them later on or also to ask for ransom, until war lays down her burdens.
Wilder’s quote is followed by a scene of terrorists decapitating a captive.

There is no purpose to this. It doesn’t provoke real debate over the nature of Islam because it deliberately distorts that nature. If there are real problems with the integration of immigrants, then these have to be discussed in a way that brings people together. This is designed to be divisive and stimulate hatred.

25 04 2008
Rhysz

The post above is a Copy/paste originally posted by Abdul Ali Pasha.

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